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#721387 - 06/21/13 11:00 PM Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors
Helios
They are trying to organize a boycott.Doubt it will be successful

Ifish members try to boycott NFS donors

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#721389 - 06/22/13 05:34 AM Re: Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors [Re: Helios]
Keystoner
Not surprising. Northwest Steelheaders is another BIG leader of the Anti-NFS charge. Something I realized just after joining them. oldfrown Given their stance, I would suggest they remove the adipose fin from the fish in their logo. As it is currently, I believe it misrepresents their ideals.

Really though, this action seems redundant. I mean, it's not like anyone actually gives the slightest of sh.its to the point that anything will ever really change. The hatchery crowd will always be the majority, and will likely also supply the most money. And hey, that's what it's all about. Gotta get some money. That's what matters. Hey, we all gave 'em $60 at the beginning of the year. We all voted YES on hatcheries right there.

Not only has NFS largely failed to bring any halt to the hatchery machine, now ODFW is even talking about opening up wild harvest again. Well, that sounds great. Bottom line: Wild fish are ^&%*^&. Anything anyone tries to do for them is just buying time. But one day, they are all gonna be gone. Makes me tear up when I think about it, but that's the reality. I'm just glad I came out here when I did, so I could actually catch a few of them before that happens.


Edited by DukeTrout (06/22/13 10:03 PM)
_________________________
http://zenpunkrocktroutfish.blogspot.com/
Keep up. Stay rad.
Stop hot spotting my river.

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#721390 - 06/22/13 06:34 AM Re: Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors [Re: Keystoner]
peterjones
Those that do not agree with the NFS stance are making their opinion known, as is their right. Personally, I think that wild, native fish are of great importance, and need to be protected. And I have made that opinion known. The down side is that I am not currently in "alignment" with the NFS program. Perhaps I need more info from them, but I cannot see any that is forthcoming, as yet. Perhaps they do not care, and that says something.
As Keystoner says, "it's not like anyone actually gives the slightest of sh.ts." Sad but true. I know that there are some (here) that are passionate about this subject and seem to be informed regarding native fish. And there are some that are passionate about the FISHERY. Two different subjects, and not necessarily opposed (my personal opinion).
Might anyone know if NFS has ever attempted to have any discourse with any of the so called "anti-NFS" groups? Is there something wrong with gathering support from ALL fishermen instead of squaring off with them? There seem to be some on the Ifish site that are saying the same thing...........

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#721391 - 06/22/13 06:36 AM Re: Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors [Re: Keystoner]
DWFII
I've been fishing the fly, exclusively, for over half a century. I'm not an expert on these issues...mostly I just like to fish.

But that said, suspect that the anti-hatchery movement is really an anti-fishing movement. If only because once...or even if...you get rid of all the hatcheries there are so many other less-easily-addressed issues that impact wild fish populations that the next hue and cry will be to ban all fishing because the native stocks are too fragile, populations too small, pressure too great, etc., to recover on their own.

I suspect that a case could be made that on some level hatchery fish protect native stocks. Protect them by taking pressure off them. Fish naturally school. It is part of their survival strategy. So the more fish in the river the greater chances of survival for any one individual. Think of hatchery fish as anti-aircraft flak. oldcool

And it's not incidental or trivial that there is a bias against bait and gear fishing among those who espouse these views. I deplore the messes...the "slobbery", the indifference, the mental laziness...that seems to accompany the hardware crowd but to suggest that such methods ought to be banned everywhere is a form of elitism that is counter to every democratic principle we've ever believed in (most of us). What's next? rivers being closed off entirely and exorbitant fees charged for access? Beats, as in the UK?

I wouldn't boycott the people who support the NFS (although some of it seems a bit hypocritical), on the other hand I don't think opening any river to wild harvest is wise or smart, either...so there's a little old-fashioned cognitive dissonance on both sides.

More than that I like to eat an occasional fish and there's no better eating than a fresh Skamania-stock hen.
_________________________
Tight Lines--DWFII

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#721392 - 06/22/13 07:43 AM Re: Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors [Re: DWFII]
andy-ap emerger
^^^


X2
_________________________
Love the Deschutes? It's given all of us so much more than just great fishing. It's time to pay her back. Help out today: http://deschutesriveralliance.wordpress.com/tag/algae/


AP

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#721394 - 06/22/13 08:44 AM Re: Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors [Re: andy-ap emerger]
pigs
DWFII, very well said.

Its a tough issue. We've screwed up our native fish populations over the years. Some people dont really care. The blue collar guy who just wants to bonk a few steelies for the table.......they want fish in the river, period. Doin away with the hatcheries and then at minimum not being able to keep fish, and possibly not even being able to fish waters is unacceptable to them. I get it.

That being said, there has got to be a happy medium. Its kinda like having the gucci catch and release, barbless, trout waters and also having the trout ponds with pellet heads. I love the wild (not native) trout, and will protect them, while the guys who wanna bonk fish go to the places where they put in brood stock and catchable pelletheads that taste like catfood.

Everyone's got their own opinion on the steelhead issue. Personally, I'd be ok with gettin rid of hatchery steelhead. Of course I'm not a steelhead junkie, so not having them as a fishing option wouldnt affect me much. But, I understand the value of wild fish. Where its feasible, aggressively protect em.

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#721396 - 06/22/13 08:53 AM Re: Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors [Re: andy-ap emerger]
Doublebluff
I worked hatcheries for several years in my youth. I spent time after that in an academic setting working on fish pathogens. I've been out of that for quite a while, but every time I go to a hatchery, it's amazing to me how the technology has changed so very little. And when I go to a meeting that has presentaitons by researchers in fish pathogenesis, how the questions being asked have changed so little as well.

Hatcheries can and should be used as a tool to supplement wild fish, and to maintain the natural diversity present in a system. There could be a significant amount of change introduced into the process of hatchery management that would allow for a better and more survivable stock.
_________________________
Then he lost the thread and his mind got cluttered,
And the words just rolled off down the gutter.

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#721399 - 06/22/13 09:10 AM Re: Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors [Re: DWFII]
Keystoner
Originally Posted By: DWFII/

And it's not incidental or trivial that there is a bias against bait and gear fishing among those who espouse these views. I deplore the messes...the "slobbery", the indifference, the mental laziness...that seems to accompany the hardware crowd but to suggest that such methods ought to be banned everywhere is a form of elitism that is counter to every democratic principle we've ever believed in (most of us). What's next? rivers being closed off entirely and exorbitant fees charged for access? Beats, as in the UK?


Maybe. I'm not sure that would be a bad thing. I don't know exactly how they run it in Europe. But, in general, it's my perception that the fish, and therefore the fisheries, are better off. I think I would be willing to pay more for that. Furthermore, if shutting down rivers is what it takes, then so be it. I won't be happy about it, but these fish are more important than my or anyone else's leisure time. I fish because I love fish, and I have no other way to connect with them. The day that I can't step out there with at least a hope of a wild one, is the day I pack it up and go back east. I can catch hatchery turds anywhere. I came to Oregon, because Oregon has the real magic, for now.

I'm also not sure what the taboo regarding "elitism" is all about. By definition, fly fishing is an "elite" form of angling. Sorry, that's just my view. Evidence of this is easily found. Compare the "fly only" water on the NU to that which lies downstream, it's like night and day. Just my observation.
_________________________
http://zenpunkrocktroutfish.blogspot.com/
Keep up. Stay rad.
Stop hot spotting my river.

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#721400 - 06/22/13 09:20 AM Re: Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors [Re: Keystoner]
andy-ap emerger
Originally Posted By: Keystoner
Originally Posted By: DWFII/

.....Is a form of elitism that is counter to every democratic principle we've ever believed in (most of us). What's next? rivers being closed off entirely and exorbitant fees charged for access? Beats, as in the UK?


Maybe. I'm not sure that would be a bad thing. I don't know exactly how they run it in Europe.

I'm also not sure what the taboo regarding "elitism" is all about. By definition, fly fishing is an "elite" form of angling. Sorry......







Ummmm.... Our definitions are greatly different.

AP predicts this thread geting ugly and locked shortly.



AP out
_________________________
Love the Deschutes? It's given all of us so much more than just great fishing. It's time to pay her back. Help out today: http://deschutesriveralliance.wordpress.com/tag/algae/


AP

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#721402 - 06/22/13 09:35 AM Re: Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors [Re: andy-ap emerger]
Keystoner
Originally Posted By: andy-ap emerger
Originally Posted By: Keystoner
Originally Posted By: DWFII/

.....Is a form of elitism that is counter to every democratic principle we've ever believed in (most of us). What's next? rivers being closed off entirely and exorbitant fees charged for access? Beats, as in the UK?


Maybe. I'm not sure that would be a bad thing. I don't know exactly how they run it in Europe.

I'm also not sure what the taboo regarding "elitism" is all about. By definition, fly fishing is an "elite" form of angling. Sorry......







Ummmm.... Our definitions are greatly different.

AP predicts this thread geting ugly and locked shortly.



AP out


Maybe so. I'm just being honest about how I feel. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but if others are unable to disagree in a civil way, it's not my problem.
_________________________
http://zenpunkrocktroutfish.blogspot.com/
Keep up. Stay rad.
Stop hot spotting my river.

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#721403 - 06/22/13 09:46 AM Re: Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors [Re: Keystoner]
True
Farm Fish --> Hatchery Fish --> Wild Fish --> No Fish...

True
_________________________
"This above all else: to thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man." - Shakespeare

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#721404 - 06/22/13 09:49 AM Re: Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors [Re: Keystoner]
DWFII
I've fished the NU for so many years my aluminum is part and parcel of the silver shine on the Kitchen Table.

I love the NU. But guaranteed, if the river is "locked up", sooner or later a day on a beat such as Lower Archie or Horseshoe Bend will cost you more than any average guy can afford.

And, in this country, at least, where "old money" and landed gentry are not the norm, it's the average guy that supports most, if not all, conservation and restoration projects.

I will say this...flyfishing may be an elite sport but I suspect it's self-defeating (for all of us) to apply that elitism to anything more than the spirit that motivates us. When it becomes impossible for average folks to get into flyfishing (even if it's simply an attitude thing), two things happen: First, the average guy will resort to other tactics...the surfeit of "iron mongers" out there is perhaps indicative of that.

Second, the critical financial and political support that is needed to preserve the fisheries will be lost...if only because no one listens to people who think that all the joy in life ought to be reserved for them and them alone.

And thirdly, at some point, it's no longer elitism...it's greed and exclusivity.

Elitism is not a taboo in my book but I think one needs to be consciously aware that it is anti-democratic. The "taboo" aspect of it is largely irrelevant.

I wish everybody flyfished simply because doing so inevitably leads people to think about the interconnectedness of the river. If you want to know how to catch fish in June on the Metolius you have to be aware of the Green Drake hatch. That leads to an awareness of the nymphal forms and then...somewhere, some time...the thought at least surfaces that water quality has something to do with the ability of the river to support the insects. Which in turn leads one to think about their own impact on the riparian environment as well as their responsibility to minimize that impact. Spilled gasoline, antibiotics, drugs, insecticides, fertilizers, outright poisons, etc., ad infinitum...all of which enter the watershed from sources not necessarily connected to fishing of any stripe.

Not all flyfishermen are so conscientious, of course, but I suspect these are thoughts and mental pathways that more flyfishermen entertain and trod, than the hardware guys.

Beyond all that, I have hooked numerous fish on the NU but the hottest fish I ever connected with were both Skamania (hatchery) fish--one in the South Santiam and the other in the North Santiam. Turds they weren't.

In passing...and not unkindly...I personally despair of calling hatchery fish "turds". It is disrespectful and disrespect tends to breed disrespect. Irrespective of their origin, they are the same species...and a noble species at that.

Personally, I am happy when I catch or hook a hatchery fish. I don't mope or pine for the wild fish that it might have been. The fish is a gift one way or the other. All of which underscores the point I made about anti-aircraft flak.



Edited by DWFII (06/22/13 10:16 AM)
_________________________
Tight Lines--DWFII

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#721405 - 06/22/13 10:11 AM Re: Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors [Re: DWFII]
Keystoner
DWFII, you say so much, so well, it would be hard to address all your points. This is the part where I wish we were at a campfire somewhere, actually talking. Suffice it to say, I do agree with the bulk of you're statements. Perhaps "turd" was poor word choice, just the same, I am always happier to catch a wild one. I have not been at this anywhere near as long as you, but my two hottest fish so far have been wild. I typically fish the lightest rig possible, because I want a fish that will move for the fly, usually that seems to be a wild fish. That said, there is also a certain comfort that comes at the end of day where I have been blanked. Something like, "Well, at least I KNOW I haven't harmed anything today."
_________________________
http://zenpunkrocktroutfish.blogspot.com/
Keep up. Stay rad.
Stop hot spotting my river.

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#721406 - 06/22/13 10:14 AM Re: Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors [Re: Keystoner]
DWFII
Originally Posted By: Keystoner
DWFII, you say so much, so well,, [snip]..."at least I KNOW I haven't harmed anything today."


Well, in the spirit of the above, I just hope I haven't made your eyes bleed today. oldbiggrin2


Edited by DWFII (06/22/13 10:15 AM)
_________________________
Tight Lines--DWFII

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#721414 - 06/22/13 12:37 PM Re: Ifish members organize boycott of NFS donors [Re: DWFII]
KillerDave
Something weird happened to my paragraphs. I'll try to fix it later. A few comments: It was too bad about the Steelheaders stance. Got the letter, cancelled my membership one hour afterwards, stopped payment on my check and peeled their sticker off my boat that afternoon. I saw that post over on iFish too. I think I may have even posted a response but it's been my experience that making a strong effort to post an opinion on iFish is kind of a waste of time because if what you want to discuss goes against the grain of the mods, it gets censored no matter how respectfully it’s worded. It's too bad they do this as censorship has really marginalized that site. Not all gear guys are knuckle draggers—they deserve more respect. A friend of mine who is in the fishing advertising biz once summed up the influence that iFish wields: Phuck those 40 guys! If you skim iFish anymore, you’ll notice it’s gotten real inbred. To be fair to iFish, I do like their hunting forum. With respect to DWFII, your comments on Anti-Hatchery being Anti-Fishing and hatchery fish numbers protecting wild fish like a flack jacket are 180 degrees dead wrong. Let me explain. In our region, fish hatcheries do not exist for sports fishing. Always keep this in mind. Northwest hatcheries exist to provide commercial harvest opportunities that were largely eliminated when our industrial society dammed the rivers, mined the mountains and logged the forests. As a result there are currently 208 hatcheries in the Columbia basin and the new 51 million dollar Colville Tribe facility just came on line, so some time real soon there will 209. The top brass at ODFW and WDFW are currently wedded to hatcheries and keep pumping out the propaganda to sports anglers that hatcheries are necessary to provide “angling opportunity.” Here’s the reality: we have all these hatcheries and they keep pumping out fish. The fish used to come back but now hatchery runs steadily diminish, fees increase, fishing regs get more complex and emergency season closures become the norm. While the population increases, fishing license sales decrease. As it’s been explained to me by Bill McMillian, hatchery planting produces good results at first but hatchery raised fish are not skilled at avoiding predators, thus we need to plant a lot of hatchery fish to generate returns. However, it doesn’t take long for predators to anticipate the hatchery bounty and once the predator population ramps up our hatchery runs are doomed. The problem pointed out by DWFII is fish like to school, so when the lesser numbers of wild fish throw in with the hatchery school, they are put in harms way and get eaten. Thus, there is not safety in numbers and we need to keep them separate. It’s counter intuitive. But we do have some good to excellent fishing going on right now like the Deschutes (native fish), the Crooked (native fish) , the Dean (native fish) the Nushagak (native fish), Yakutat (native fish), North BC (native fish), Gold River on Vancouver Island (native fish), Yellowstone (native fish), Metolius (native fish), Shad (naturally reproducing), Carp (native fish), Bass (naturally reproducing) and I could just go on and on and on with these examples. On the other hand, I’m not currently fishing the Clackamas because the hatchery summer steelhead run more or less tanked. Fishing on the Sandy is very limited right now too. There are some hatchery steelhead being taken right by the hatchery. However, most of the Spring Chinook being caught are natives, yet folks keep screaming “we need to keep the hatchery open” even though the returns keep shrinking and the costs keep mounting. I’m not getting this. So I’m on the native fish bandwagon because I want to fish more, not less. We have some excellent fishing available in the Northwest, a lot of it native fish based and so the NFS is picking up members and funding and is thus able to challenge the status quo. I was at the auction, it gives me hope. There were lots of young people there, money flowed, the NFS had their most successful auction to date. They’re picking up steam. You don’t have to agree with everything an organization does to get involved. And, isn’t just really satisfying to see someone stand up to the ODFW? Resistance isn't always futile.
_________________________
"Good things come to those who wade" Joe Simms

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